Wednesday, August 7, 2013

Stuff that sucks

Some models are bad - and that's ok.

That is going to be my post for the week - talking about models considered bad and my experiences with them. It's bound to offend some people, but entertain me.

First, some theory for framing perspective. Here are some reasons why models are bad:

1. Badly costed

Points cost is the single most important statistic on a model's card, especially at lower points levels, as the difference between X and X-1 can be quite significant. Lowering or increasing a model's PC can have a huge impact on whether you see them in a list or not, or if you see 8 or 1. Cryx Stalkers, for example, were PC:3 in the Mk2 Field Test, and Cryx players were spamming those things like crazy. Get a single Stalker with 3 focus on the enemy caster and that was probably game over. Fortunately they were increased to PC: 4 at release and their value relative to Bane and Satyxis swarms decreased and we thankfully don't have to play against 6 Stalkers anymore.
On the flip side, you have Trenchers, where a full unit with all the UAs and support modules costs about 4.2 million points, and is still not as good as the Winterguard Deathstar, buffs or not.

2. Opportunity Cost

A different way to look at the cost issue. Sometime there are just models available to you that do practically the same thing at better value, or bring additional options to the table. Often this will be a merc model, but sometimes within the same faction. That is like the ultimate kick in the nuts.

3. Very situational

Some models have abilities that are extremely dependent on matchup, and their effectiveness is thus dependent on your opponent's list. This is not really a cool place to be, unless you know exactly what you're going to be playing against every time
Take Strakhov for example, who is pretty good against Legion shooty lists because he has Occultation and he is immune to fire. Meaning that Legion has no way to shoot him to death outside Bolt Throwers. And his stuff is really really fast. Sometimes abilities that are fundamental to a model's effectiveness but only work on living models, or warbeasts. As you would expect, these models are usually noticeably less sweet when their preferred targets are not around. This point of course bleeds into....

4. The Meta

What you play against has a large impact on the value of your models. If you expect to play against a lot of heavy armor, as has been the case in a Colossals meta, then armor crackers like heavies and weapon masters are valuable. If you expect to face lots of troops, then models that can generate multiple attacks in a turn and AoEs and sprays are valuable.If you expect lots of tough, anti-healing and Take Down is good. If you expect incorporeal, then magic weapons become more valuable, etc. etc. etc.
Points size is also a factor, as are tournament formats. Character restrictions have made a big difference in model viability by removing the option to take more powerful character choices in every list. Playing scenario vs not playing for scenario makes a huge difference to the power of some models. Some casters and models are much

5. Clunky design

Some models actually do fine in games purely on a capability perspective, but are annoying to play or get to "work" for many people. Sometimes there are too many hoops to jump through, sometimes they Skornergize* with your models, sometimes they just try to do lots of things and suck at them all. Either way, they still suck. In any case, they are just not really enjoyable to use in a real game but usually look sweet in theorymachine.

6. Designed for that annoying tart that wants to make everything work all the time

You know those guys that want everything to work all the time? Yeah. They are the guys that post threads on the PP boards every few weeks about how they've figured out Assault Kommandos and Tharn Ravagers. I admit I am guilty of this type of behavior at times. But I've come around to the fact that some stuff just sucks.... and that's ok. Pleasure from pain. If you still enjoy putting your balls in a vice and spinning the handle at varying speeds in random directions in the hope that you'll find some kind of personal satisfaction or enlightenment, you go ahead and give yourself blue balls.

7. Light artillery

Pretty much all light artillery sucks, except perhaps the Mortar crew. Nobody really knows why, but my theory is that because they can't move and shoot, they lose a lot of tactical depth and become predictable. If you look at the stats of most light artillery models, they are pretty decent and usually straight up better than a ranged solo at the same cost. However they only do one thing, which is shoot AoEs or potentially high-ish POW attacks at highly predictable ranges. They also usually can't boost on top of that, which makes you hate them more and just spend your points on super expensive warjacks with the same gun instead (which are probably worse).

Much like Gargantuans, I can't complain that Gators don't have any light artillery.

8.  Design decisions that err on the side of caution

I think several members of the Warmachine design team engaged in Opus Dei-type self-flagellation as the result of Mk1 brokenness. It is quite clear these days that whenever given they choice, they will choose to make a model tamer and lower on the power curve rather than risk a model winning the majority of tournaments. That would be really horrible. In my opinion, this will often lead to some changes late in the design process that don't get playtested as thoroughly as they should and have a bigger impact on a model's viability than expected.

I'm sure everyone prefers this state of affairs to Mk1 "everything is broken" balance. It is funny how often I hear that MkII is 'perfectly balanced' after hearing the same thing about MK1 for years. PP do a great job of keeping the game balanced, but anyone who has played Warmachine for a few years is aware that balance issues will almost always be present to varying degrees. You can't compare an eLich to a Venethrax, or McThralls to Drudges. There is always room for improvement, not only in terms of nerfs, but also of buffs.

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Here is a small, non-exhaustive selection of models that are usually held up as bad/ crap:

Cygnar:

  • Trenchers - They cost too damn much. They can do lots of stuff (not particularly well), but 1pt per guy is a hefty cost, especially when you throw in all the additional stuff. They already have an amazing UA which doesn't fix their standing - I think it's just a matter of reexamining the cost decisions on Cygnar units (who are obviously costed with great shooting buffs in mind). Long Gunners are arguably in the same boat but benefit hugely from Snipe.
  • Stormblades - Cost too much for SPD 5, totally average defensive stats, and no reach. Sure, they can hit hard and have guns and tons of gizmos, but what's the point when you can't even do the basics? Again, already have a UA and WA, so I'm thinking either Stryker3 gets Lightning Tendrils AND Deflection/Deceleration or these guys will be coated in a thick coat of grey dust by the time Mk2 Remix hits.

Cryx:

  • Venethrax - First of all, he isn't one of the other Cryx casters. Second, he is very skewed towards livings models. Third, his feat ranges from random as hell, to self-defeating, to not doing much at all. It's cute. Unlife in the Cryxian Empire has not been kind to Skeletor.
  • Drudges - These are just straight up worse than McThralls for more points. Or worse than any unit in Cryx for any points. And 90% of their effectiveness is tied to one pretty easy to kill model. Like... what? Redesign these so they have flexible weapon modes like CoC infantry and don't hold onto the Mind Slaver for dear life and we might see them on the table.... one day.
  • Cryx Heavies - Two problems with Cryx heavies, who for the most part are actually pretty good: One, they are squishy as all hell and have no repair option that can really keep up with them at full speed so losing 3 systems to a boosted Reckoner shot makes you want to just play more Banes instead. Two, you could just take Banes/ Satyxis/ McThralls, who hit equally hard, put out more attacks and need less focus to do it. Opportunity cost at work here.
    Deathjack ADs, has armour and heals itself, so he is immune to criticism and costs a ton.

PoM:

It's hard to find bad things in Protectorate,because the whole faction is based around jerking itself off so everyone feels good and high-fives each other. I mean, Amon is considered bad in that faction, since he has some incentive to not stay 6 miles back.
  • Deliverers - Perfectly fine unit. However, nobody takes them because they take soooooooo long to resolve at full efficiency, and don't get all the buffs a Redeemer does. They attempted to fix them in Mk2 by giving them a huge 5" AoE CRA so they can activate faster, but even then Redeemers are better and die slower.
  • Paladin? - What happened here? I never see these anymore. I guess they aren't as tough as Seneschals, and only become really great with Vilmon, who people don't take anymore for some reason. Too many magic weapons in the meta I guess.

Khador:

  • Zerkova - universally acknowledged as the worst caster in Khador for many reasons. First she is squishy and her defensive tech is bad. Second, she has every incentive to move upfield since her main influence on the game is through offensive spells and her pDenny-style feat. The most effective way to play her would be to take some shield guards (Bokurs), upkeep her spells, feat and then camp focus all the time and hope to live. That is even more boring than eKreoss. Third, no real game plan - everything is reactionary or denial, and not that great at it.
  • Decimator- requires wayyyyyy too much focus to make up for his craptastic RAT. I suspect he will come back with Malakov, because that Beat Back POW 15 gun combined with a POW 20 sustained attack melee weapon seems really good on a SPD 6 jack.
  • Assault Kommandos - Do like 10 things, and all of them suck. There's no getting past mediocre stats, very low POW attacks, highly situational abilities and a pretty high points cost (except giving them +3 to all stats). Remember how good Trenchers were in Mk1? So do these guys.
  • MoW Kovnik - This guy looks like serious business on paper. Problem is SPD 4 and no reach combined with no movement tricks means this guy isn't really getting to hit anything (unless you give him +3 to all stats). Second the emphasis on his jack marshall abilities, in a faction where jacks are focus-hungry, get great battlegroup buffs and have some very impressive buffable troops. And now have Malakov.
The poster boys for failure in JS Land

Mercs:

  • pMagnus - great spell list, but no feat. Not having a feat kinda sucks. Imagine how much people would hate pStryker if he didn't have a feat - that's pMagnus. It's not really a matter of terrible as much as lame.
  • Devil Dogs - too many hoops to jump through, and other people just do what they do better and more reliably. Charge maybe 7 around a warjack if graced by the favor of God himself, hit maybe the 3rd or 4th net, then get three POW 10 weapon master attacks. Then die. Short ranged guns and no way to deliver.... just legitimately bad.
  • Blythe and Bull - WTF. It's like Ayanna & Holt that don't have Harm or Magic Weapons or Stealth and only one big meaty gun. Most obvious IKRPG conversion ever.
  • Avalancher - Those Rhulics and their power pieces. I think they should get their own faction. Then Minions won't be the worst faction in the game anymore. This jack just seems like an even shittier version of the Destroyer, which is already a pretty shitty jack. Am I missing something?

Ret:

  • Garryth - melee assassination casters don't tend to do too well in the current meta. Garryth would be great if he could keep his army standing long enough for him to get to the enemy caster, but Ret isn't built that way. And his feat being skewed so hard towards Warmachine sucks for him.
  • Gorgon - The  Force Lock ability seems really strong. However it is tied to both a squishy warjack with rather crap combat capabilities and a squishy Generator node. It might cause slight activation issues for your opponent, but if that's what you're going for you might as well play this next guy....
  • Nayl - Have no idea why people don't play him. As a Hordes player, I find him annoying as hell. Sure, he can screw you over if you place your caster nearby and he gets thrown over there. OR he can get in the middle of the opposing army and take P+S 13 free strikes on everyone since he is way too annoying to deal with and destroys your opponent's time. Guess two points is a lot to give up to completely mess up your opponent's plans for a turn.
Apparently if I ever get a tattoo, it has to be this.
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Trolls:

  • Gunnbjorn - he has a sweet gun, pretty good spells but again, no feat. Or a feat that doesn't work for his spell list, since it seems only good for protecting a rampaging horde of rushing trolls on the advance, which will be way ahead of him. Trolls usually have underwhelming spells and feats on paper, but this guy also has them on the table!
  • Winter Troll - I haven't had the pleasure to see why this guy sucks on the table. If the animus was RNG: Self, I would totally understand but at RNG 6 it might see some use. Maybe it's the RAT 4 on the spray. Maybe it's the pillow fists when you could be taking some baller Troll Hero or a Pyre Troll that brings +2 damage to said Troll Hero.
  • Mountain King- He might be awesome if he came out 2 years ago when people weren't designing lists to 1-round much heavier targets. Alas, people are doing just that. He's also MAT 5 for no reason at all. WHY MAT 5?!?!
  • Sluggers - So their stats suck more than the average Troll, for some reason. And if they move and shoot, they really suck. If they stand still and shoot, they get 5d3 RAT 7 POW 13 shots off, which is pretty good with Snipe. But then they are 5/8 for 3/5 guys with 5 boxes each. Why they have boxes, nobody knows. More muscle mass from lifting I guess. But we do know this is the best example of Snipe tax known to man.

Circle:

  • Ravagers - It's because they die. Like, really easily. If everyone played in heavily forested terrain all the time, they would probably be legit, but such a thing is rare.
  • Sentry Stones - This thing was ridiculously overpowered in Mk1 for doing almost the same thing. Then Mk2 happened and I have not seen one since. Is it the 3pts? The short 6" CMD range? The reliance on enemy warbeasts to do it's thing? I really don't know.

Legion:

  • Rhyas - Again, a melee assassination caster that doesn't seem to get love. How odd. I think this is the case of a caster that doesn't do much. She hides in the back, casts Dash and upkeeps two spells. If you play against Hordes you might risk her to kill a warbeast and steal its fury and run away. Her feat is good but kinda reliant on your opponents list and positioning. Also no pathfinder is stupid.
  • Grotesques - Not only are they uglier than my ass, they are potentially the least exciting unit I have ever seen. Mediocre to poor stats all around, BUT they can fly, are fearless and gang. That sure makes up for that single MAT 5 POW 10 attack. If they were 3/5, they might see some play. Might.

Skorne:

A fall from grace that would make Satan jealous.
  • eMorghoul - A melee assassination caster! Yep, and eMorghoul also sucks to play. In Mk1, he was probably amongst the most OP casters in the game since he was not only an assassin machine with good support spells (same as now), but his feat Blinded your opponent's entire army. That was pretty OP. Anyway, they dicked around with him in the Play Test for several editions until they slapped his current lame-ass boring feat on him in the last release and left it at that, together with passive stealth. Two weeks more/less of playtesting would have made a world of difference.
  • Savage - I don't know why I don't see more of these. I submitted so many feedback forms that the animus should cost 1. Now it costs 1 and nobody takes them. FML. More evidence nobody really likes melee lights unless they are spammable, and Savages are not spammable at 5pts. dat animus though...
  • Cannoneer - Warbeasts with big AoE guns are amazing since you can boost pretty much everything you need at will. The reason this guy is left on the shelf however is firstly because his animus does nothing. It did nothing in Mk1 and doesn't do much now - the range is too short, and the cost is too high for a warlock relative to two more transfers. Secondly, he is very average in melee and Skorne doesn't stand for that jazz.
  • Siege Animantrax - This thing not only sucks on the table, but also sucks on paper. I would have loved to see this thing in playtest, it must have been broken as balls before those last minute tweaks.

Minions:

  • Arkadius - People want to cast Crippling Grasp - they miss, they die. On the flipside, pig beasts are pretty crap so his entire shtick is consequentially equally crap. Better pig beasts please.
  • Calaban - I like my warlock to do things. If I wanted to just cast one spell, upkeep things and hope like hell I don't die, I'd have played PoM. If Grave Door didn't require 14 hoops to jump through as well as a full tax audit and vetting process, then maybe he might be cool had Rask never come out.
  • Brigands - People take these with Carver. They don't take them otherwise. Because giving them CRA and Fearless is a thing when they have otherwise poor stats.
  • Boneswarms - I have written on Boneswarms before. They could have three different roles, yet they don't do any of them well. They do the tanky role in Midas' theme list pretty well. Sucks for you, Gator players.

Feel free to share your thoughts. Remember that, at least in this context, 'good' and 'bad' are entirely relative, so it makes sense for every eLich,  Molik, or Satyxis unit, we have an eMorghoul, Avalancher or Grotesques.

*Skornergy, for you young ones, is a term coined by the podcast Focus and Fury to describe the Skorne list design process during the Hordes Playtest. It is essentially synergy that looks amazing but doesn't actually work, or screws itself over at some stage in the process. Lots of Skorne warlocks had this feature.



7 comments:

  1. Nice post, but a few things;

    Paladins don't have reach. That's why Vilmon is cool but they aren't. Still, people do take them. I believe 'Cinerators' was the answer you were looking for.

    Nayl is actually pretty good. I would run him in a decent sized points game. Ret lists are pretty tight a lot of the time though.

    He's MAT 5 because trolls have access to some great buffs. I couldn't recommend running him with anyone but eDoomshaper but with wild aggression and other great boosters I would run the MK with Doomy at 50pts every time.

    The canoneers animus is actually a very decent one, and the willbreaker helps him a lot. He's a poor man's mammoth but I don't see why you wouldn't look at him for Rasheth at say, a 40 point level.

    I'm surprised that a lot of the lights in the game didn't make your list, considering both kinds of argus, the (circle) griffons, vigilant, gorgon etc.

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    1. It wasn't conclusive, just some models I think suck and some models other people think suck. Basically it is my incoherent open response to people who try to defend everything and do not accept that some things are simply quite subpar.If I went through everything it'd probably be 3 times as long. I like Nayl for example. Cinerators are indeed pretty bad and slipped my mind.

      If I learned anything from the Field Tests, it's the huge difference between MAT 5 and MAT 6. Skorne heavies and warjacks going from MAT 6 in Mk2 was like night and day. Then Mountain King (who understandably does well with Wild Agression and ~20pts of support on top of his 20pts).

      You should give the Canoneer a go and play some Skorne! Maybe you'll find them to be above the LLoL?

      Delete
    2. Let me refer you to a video batrep of my game against Peter Williamson who beat Dave Stent twice at CTA and placed third.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xkp2-JspRS4

      Delete
  2. Grotesques are the ones that are currently making me a bit sad, but it's not all bad. Sure, they do pretty much everything worse then legionnaires BUT I have found one possibly redeeming quality. I could take a full unit of either for 6pts for my 50pts pThag list and they'd basically play the role of meatshield. I want them to die so I spawn stuff from the pot. def/arm 13/13 is not worse then 12/14, but if you consider defensive line for 12/16 legionnaires come out on top. But add fog of war and you're looking at 15/13 and 14/16. And we all know armour bellow 16 is pretty much irrelevant, while every point of defence over 13 is swinging odds nicely in your favour. Grotesques are not good by any means but for their role, they don't perform that much worse or differently then legionnaires. If they were speed 6, had 2 attacks, SOMETHING I'd feel a lot better about them but sometimes, winning with something everyone considers bad is rewarding enough. :)

    S

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    1. This is the perfect example of the mindset of someone who loves Assault Kommandos :P

      Sometimes you just have to accept that something is bad and move on.

      Delete
  3. I like to think of it as picking models I like and somehow finding a role in an army in which they're better then anything else. Mathematically, the extra point of defence is probably better then extra armour with fog of war. I didn't do the maths but after ...a lot of games and looking at charts behind me,my gut feeling tells me so.

    I did same brainstorming with Sentry and found out he works great with Zaal and last stand, because you usually kill 2 heavies with that and he's the only beast that has reach besides Molik. Ok and Rhino but he's anti infantry and can't take down two heavies, even under last stand. + Involiable resolve and Agonizer make him absurdly tanky. Why can't beasts' shields get disabled like the ones their steel brothers carry?

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    1. Titan Sentries are sweet. Do people debate this, or only rag on it because it's not a Bronzeback?

      The answer to your question is that Hordes is a better system than Warmachine, including taping shields to their beasts so they don't fall off. What keeps Warmachine ahead is broken feats and weapon masters (or weapon master-ish infantry).

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